Isa Rodriguez: My name's Isa Rodriguez.
Dylan Cale Jones: And I'm Dylan Cale Jones.
Isa Rodriguez: And this is Practice, Practice.
Dylan Cale Jones: Today we are very excited to be sitting down with Erin Owen. Erin, Will you please introduce yourself and tell our listeners a little bit about who you are and what you do?
Erin Owen: Well, yeah, my name is Erin Owen. I am a Tulsa based artists that mainly works in sculpture and printmaking. And I kind of make my own games, but also some like politically active work and stuff like that. But yeah, just an aspiring artist trying to make it.
Dylan Cale Jones: How's that going?
Erin Owen: Ooh, yeah. Um, they definitely were not joking when they say after you got out of college, it's just like a bunch of rejects and got to make a game plan. Got to figure it out.
But it's been really fun to lean in to all of the process of like, what I want to do? What I want to be? What do I enjoy? What do I hate and what do I want to avoid? So it's been really fun since, since college. Yeah.
Dylan Cale Jones: Okay, cool. Well, I'm excited to hear more about that. But first we want to start out by asking you about what your creativity was like as a young person and growing up. What was that like for you?
Erin Owen: Well, I think naturally, ever since I can remember, I was a really curious, curious child.
I grew up on farmland and was always outside, um, always digging in the dirt, always like chasing bugs and like seeing where they would go. And was fortunate enough to have a family that like, really encouraged me to just keep viewing the world with wonder and to keep pushing it. So I feel like I was always around creative outlets, even if it wasn't like fine art.
I feel like a lot of my creative journey growing up was a lot of writing and viewing and talking and singing. My parents always made sure I had crayons and paper nearby. Yeah, that was most of my childhood.
Isa Rodriguez: When did you know that you wanted to pursue art?
Erin Owen: You know, I feel like it's always been a part of me. I thought of it as a hobby, or like an outlet for me to get through my day. I think that decision honestly came down to my freshman year of college.
When I was in high school, I wanted to be an OBGYN. I was so obsessed with science. I loved everything to do with the who, why, when—explain it, I want to know.
And so I think naturally I was drawn to science and biochemistry and, and then after my freshman year of college, at the time I was playing college sports and I had a lot of physical injuries with sports and I had to go through a few surgeries and I couldn't use my right hand anymore.
And, if you're a science major and you're dealing with like 60 hour classes and like sports on top of it, I would just got to the point where I was like, I literally can't do the things that I'm wanting to do. And I think, honestly, the things that I'm wanting to do are taking a lot from me.
Isa Rodriguez: So how can I recenter to still prioritize pursuing something that fulfills me and doing something that is fulfilling to the community? But maybe it doesn't have to be like all-in. Yeah, you don't need to be a brain surgeon.
Erin Owen: I don't need to be, I don't need to be like the best at saving the world. That's crazy. And I feel like growing up, I put that pressure on myself to be like, ' What is my place to help the most?'
And I think that year in college, just going through those surgeries and I had to learn how to use my right hand again. My rehabilitation was art. Well, it wasn't just like writing over and over again. Like I went extensive with like pastels and painting. And I think I just really reconnected with myself like, this means so much more to me than just like something to get me through the day.
And I think I just had a lot of really realistic conversations with friends about being like, There are jobs in art. It's not something that I should be scared about chasing. If anything, I should be chasing something that I'm really passionate about. And I am still very passionate about like women's health and science and all of that, but like, how can I get those boxes checked with art?
Dylan Cale Jones:
It's pretty amazing too, that in spite of all of the things that this culture throws at us about how difficult it is to be an artist, how useless it is to be an artist, all of these different negative things that are associated with that, that you had the presence of mind and faith in yourself to just be like, I got this.
Yeah. Yeah. That's pretty cool.
Erin Owen: Yeah, no, thank you. I, I knew early on that my, I wanted my life to be very different from those around me, especially in Oklahoma. I didn't want to be okay with the status quo. And I think a really big part that switched that for me was watching my grandma walk through life.
She's a really creative person too. She did nonprofit theater in Tulsa. And I think just every time that I would be like, man, I, that's impossible. But she honestly lives a very happy life. And I think that's the type of happiness I want to go for, so it's whatever gets me there.
Dylan Cale Jones: Cool. So, Erin, let's talk about what your practice is like now. What you doing?
Erin Owen: Yeah. Well, let's see, I graduated college last year. And since graduating, I just wanted to recenter completely, and figure out, what does my practice look like outside of academia, and what do I want it to look like?
In academia, I feel like I was never, never stopping. Just always go, go, go needing to get to that deadline. And there were a lot of times I was really unhappy with the product or was beating myself down about it. And I accidentally would let it get so hard on myself that since graduating, I'm like, Why am I doing this? I want to find that balance.
So this year has been a lot of, Momentum.
Dylan Cale Jones: And for folks who aren't familiar, can you explain what Momentum is?
Erin Owen: Yeah, yeah. It is this annual exhibition that, Oklahoma Visual Arts Coalition, they put on. And it's only for artists under 30. And
It's probably my favorite art event that's put on in Oklahoma yearly just because of how encouraging it is to see all of these like really young artists getting to connect probably some in their first exhibition ever. Um, but it's just a really good community building. And this year I was asked to be one of the spotlight artists, which was such a huge honor.
And so when you're a spotlight artist, you create a body of work or a small series of work to show.
And while I was in my undergraduate, I was really focused on responding to games, and play, and nostalgia. And then I, as I graduated, I was like, I think it'd be really cool to create my own games.
So for Momentum, I wanted to create an actual game room of games that I was creating. Like in past portfolios, I was creating games based on Shoots and Ladders or like popular board games. But now I'm making my own and creating my own, I guess. Yeah.
Isa Rodriguez: So can you give us an example of one of the games you created?
Erin Owen: Yeah. The biggest piece for Momentum was, it's called Scratch.
I was completely obsessed with taking game theory and applying it to society. And I guess in past works, I was relating how like the similarities between the two, but I was never giving the game player the power to think about it themselves.
And so with Scratch, it is this big, immersive rug that functions as the game board and it comes with
blank instructions, blank game pieces, and then blank cards to play with. In the instruction booklet, it actually guides you how to make a game. And it kind of gives you these prompts of like, well, what do you want to be the rules? And who's making the rules anyways? And why can't you be the person that makes the rules?
I think when we all play Monopoly, like we all are very prescribed to the rules that we're given and we like we know them and it's boring and terrible and we hate it.
Um, and so I kept thinking about that game and I was like, what if I just actually like, threw the rule book out the window and like gave people the chance to create the game that they wanted, or create, I mean, in my head, the society that they wanted.
And it was really interesting to see people, come and interact. And I got a few different versions of games.
And I think that was probably like my biggest excitement about Scratch was just giving the power to the player. Because I think, I don't know, I think that's my biggest thing, recentering ourselves and realizing the power that we have. Honestly, like we could make a big difference. We just have to realize that we have the power to do so.
Isa Rodriguez: Yeah. Something that I find art really useful for is training those muscles, right? Thinking about how we want something to be, and then trying different strategies for creating it, right?
Like as funding in art is cut, that that creative problem solving is also discouraged. And I think we need a lot more of that if we're actually going to solve some of these larger problems.
Erin Owen: I absolutely agree with that. It's so interesting to watch people go through a creative problem solving moment and then realize that they were like, " Whoa, wow. I actually can do that and I can equate that to all of my other things that I'm working on too."
Dylan Cale Jones: Something that Isa and I both see cause we teach a lot in different contexts and my students will often ask me like, " Can I do this?" and I'm like, "Yes, you can definitely do it. Like I'm not going to stop you. Try it and see what happens."
And I, also love that idea of viewers at an exhibition space, not only to participate in the work, but to determine what the outcome of the work is.
Erin Owen: Yeah.
Dylan Cale Jones: The kind of typical experience of being in a gallery or museum is often a very passive experience for people. And I love the idea of being like, 'Here is your agency, like take it and do whatever you want with it.' I think that's really awesome.
Erin Owen: Thank you. Thank you. It's been an interesting journey trying to figure out how to encourage people to tap into their agency without accidentally yelling at them. In Oklahoma, with just everything that's always going on, it's hard to talk about environmentalism without everyone just like walking by you.
When I first got started with it, I was like, 'Oh, how am I ever going to create these conversations?' I think that's where games came in for me. Like I wanted to make these topics palatable so you guys could interact with me because I feel like we have the same goal. But how can I reach you, you know?
Isa Rodriguez: That it opens up that space.
Erin Owen: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The curator of Momentum, she mentioned that it felt like breaking bread. Art in a lot of ways does feel like breaking bread. It felt really nice when I was sitting down with people and just like getting to connect with them and then knowing their perspective.
Dylan Cale Jones: That's great.
Erin Owen: Yeah.
Dylan Cale Jones: So is there anything that you're working towards right now?
Erin Owen: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely.
Like I am creating a project right now where I don't buy anything. It's just things in my life. And it's mostly working with like, things around the house. Just something I want to put practice into every day. Little, small, baby steps. Just to connect back into myself.
Um, but then there is also a body of work that I'm working on for the end of the year. I have an exhibition in December at Positive Space in Tulsa. Which Allison Ward is curating. I think it will also be game related, but I think it's going to take on a new form, maybe straying away from environmentalism. Maybe going towards queer identity. Things like that. Yeah.
Dylan Cale Jones: Okay So, can you tell us a little bit about what you're doing with these items in your home and these things that you already have?
Erin Owen: Well, I'm accidentally a little bit of a material hoarder. It's hard not to be, because you're walking down the side of the road and you're like, 'Ah, that just would be the perfect sculpture if I waited three months and used it.'
Like, I have a whole storage unit full of just scraps of different things that I was dumpster diving for different projects. And I've always used recycled things in my work. I kind of refuse to give up this like, huge heaping pile of material. But now it's a monster, so I have to actually do something with it.
I have a huge tub of pipe cleaners. So this month, is just 30 minute exercises with like 10 pipe cleaners a day. And it's just creating different forms and like letting my fingers play, but tapping out at 30 minutes and not pushing it further.
Cause not only do I face burnout, but like I face relentless need for control. That's just something I'm becoming more aware of as an artist. And I'm hoping that this year, all of these 30 minute exercises can hopefully like break that need down.
Dylan Cale Jones: That's great. You mentioned burnout before too.
Can you talk about that and like what that was like for you?
Erin Owen: Yeah, I feel like burnout just is complete exhaustion. I couldn't like make thoughts out or I couldn't really talk. It felt really hard to connect with anyone just because I was so depleted, like mentally, emotionally, definitely physically. I was working so much like on this BFA portfolio that I wasn't eating correctly or sleeping at all. And it just got like the absolute worst of me.
It's really hard to get out of it if you're not nice to yourself, that's for sure. I feel like what really helps me istrying as best as I can to be open with my friends about (it). Being like, "Hey, like I'm having like just a tough day So if I'm not really talkative, that's why." I feel like my circle is very aware of I have my to do list I need to do my to do list. I've gotten to the point where if I give them a warning they're like, "You need to come sit in the grass. Like you can just, just tap out for the day."
And that's been really nice to have . Like my fiance, Michaela is really good about being like, "Hey, it's okay if you want me to take a walk for five minutes and then we can revisit this." So that's been something that's really helpful.
But I think rest and patience and honestly, new hobbies is something that's really helped me with it. I feel like artists, we accidentally make our hobbies our passions and we are obsessed with them. But I feel like it's also really helpful for me to start new things that are not art. Like I've started making music, like producing. And even if it's really bad and like for short spurts of time, it at least is giving me something to like, I don't know, just recenter a little bit before I go back to this thing that I'm feeling is taking over my life, I guess.
Isa Rodriguez: It sounds like it's important for you to be doing things that are for you, separate from the art, which is for you and other people.
Erin Owen: Definitely. Yeah, definitely. I feel like the problem with like politically engaged art is it can take a lot out of the artist, because you want it to be correct, in every way. So it's not missing the mark for their viewer. And I didn't realize that I was taking on such a huge taskand it's been a lot of learning I need to pour back into myself and like just for myself.
Dylan Cale Jones: I love the emphasis that you put on being kind to yourself too.
Like that's, that's where I get into trouble is sometimes I can kind of like conflate my value as a person with how much I get done and if that's happening, then it's really easy for me to slip into a work cycle that leads to burnout.
Erin Owen: Definitely. Absolutely. I'm right there with you on that one.
I feel like the whole thing of art is that we're so progress based that it's like, 'If I'm not seeing the physical progress, the world's ending.' And that's just like, 'No, that's, that's not the case. Like you gotta relax, Erin.'
Isa Rodriguez: Yeah. And I think we've also been told that. Like, for example, "It's really hard to be an artist and if you are going to succeed at being an artist, you had better be productive."
Erin Owen: Yes. Yes.
Isa Rodriguez: And that is, it's so toxic.
Erin Owen: So toxic. Yeah. I only hope that our artist community, at least in Oklahoma, like really just like pushes back on that. Because that's just not, it's just not the case. Burn out is the only answer for every artist who is gonna chase that goal.
And I feel like the more we recenter on "What is this practice doing for like my own good." I think we're going to get better work out of it.
Dylan Cale Jones: Yeah. Something that I heard recently, I was watching this episode of art 21 with Cannupa Hanska Luger and his partner, Ginger Dunhill. She was talking about how Cannupa was really reliant on her and her kids as kind of like an ecosystem to help him be a successful artist and that all successful artists have this kind of ecosystem of other people around supporting them.
And this is an idea that I had thought of before, but the word ecosystem really resonated with me because in my understanding of an ecosystem, it's really important for every single aspect of that constellation of beings to be healthy and happy.
And so, thinking of Cannupa, who's kind of the star of this video, and who Ginger is talking about as a successful artist. Not only is it important for Cannupa to be successful and happy, but he then must prioritize that she is successful and happy and that their children are successful and happy, too. And I think that's a really great reframing that I've been sort of turning over in my head a lot lately.
Isa Rodriguez: Yeah, so rather than having a network of support that supports the artist, the artist is actually an individual point in a network that is not necessarily more important. Yeah. Cause we do talk a lot about like support, right? But support needs to be reciprocated.
Erin Owen: Definitely. Oh my goodness. Definitely. Yeah. I feel like. Yeah. You can't just ask your family to take care of you as the artist. I feel like that's just like immediately downhill. Um,
Isa Rodriguez: But that's like a model we have for a lot of famous artists, right? Like Picasso is one of those artists, right? Like he's the star and everyone around him takes care of him and makes sure he can be a star.
Erin Owen: Yeah. Yeah.
Isa Rodriguez: But it's just, it's not sustainable.
Erin Owen: Definitely not. No, I reject it so hard. Um, at least in my personal life. I want to be the best wife I can be, and I want to be the best community member I can be. And if I'm not doing those things, and if I'm not being a great mom, that also makes me a pretty bad artist, I think.
Dylan Cale Jones: Yeah. Well, it sounds like too you have this framework of art being this vehicle for imagining and creating a better world. And to me a better world isn't possible if you're not being a good partner or a good parent, right. So I really appreciate that point of view.
Erin Owen: Yeah, no, absolutely. It's kind of funny. I didn't realize this until genuinely a few months ago. I found this critical reading about the tragedy of the commons. And it's basically just talking about, like, not only are all of these materials on earth, like, finite, but they're shared. That is what the result of everything comes down to, is how we share them.
I think it's like, super applicable to environmentalism, but also in every way. All of us as a community, we can't just focus on greed and taking. There's only future if we give back and we give because we love not because we want something from it, you know?
Dylan Cale Jones: Sure. Yeah.
Isa Rodriguez: So I think that leads us nicely into our next question, which is: What else is going on in your life? What other things are happening day to day? What isn't art in your life?
Erin Owen: Yeah. Oh my goodness. Well, I think my biggest priority is definitely my partnership right now. I don't know, it's just been really nice getting to set up my life with my partner because we moved in together like my last year of college, but now we're moving like into adulthood about it.
And it's been really fun getting engaged. And now we're starting to plan the wedding and it's getting like pretty serious about planning. And I think there's whimsical effort going on in that.
And then I think another big thing is I'm deciding to spend a few years in New York. So we're moving to New York City, and that is a huge task in its own. But it's been really fun to plan, and we're really excited to take that on. So it's been a lot of transition, a lot of planning for next year.
But I think day to day it's been a lot of rest. I have been so bad about rest lately that it's been really nice to come home and, figure out my, like, priorities daily, I guess. Yeah.
Dylan Cale Jones: Wow. That sounds like a lot. Moving across the country and getting married.
Erin Owen: Yeah. Yeah, it's it feels very 24.
Isa Rodriguez: Do you see yourself coming back to Oklahoma after New York?
Erin Owen: I definitely do. I feel like you guys could relate to this as artists, but you know how you don't want to say too much about a project? Because the fear of it never happening for some reason.
But I'm hoping that the years in New York really pay off for me as far as like what I can learn from these jobs in big communities and how I can bring it back here. I'm so interested in opening a recycling business that is like actually for the community.
I want something that the community sees. And I know that's my goal. And I don't necessarily know how that's my goal now. But I know if I spend some time in big cities and talking to people and figuring out solutions, I'll be able to come back and be a better, well-rounded person.
And I really, really care about that with coming back here.
Isa Rodriguez: Mm hmm.
Erin Owen: Yeah.
Isa Rodriguez: Yeah, it's something that I think about. I'm not from Oklahoma, but my mom is from Oklahoma.
And so it's something that I think about as a Queer person, in Oklahoma, as an educator. Right? Sometimes it's really exhausting to be here, but it's also really important to be here.
Erin Owen: Yeah. It means something here. Like, I feel like the pride event that happens in OKC and Tulsa is a completely different feeling from a pride event that you would get in New York City.
And like, sure, there's some tension. But it's more important that we're doing it here, um, and fighting for that. And I think it's the same argument for the arts, too. I think it just really means something to stay, or at least to come back to.
A lot of my friends, I mean, we're all at the stage where it's like, "I love where I grew up, but clearly they don't want me here."
So I would like to probably leave to live somewhere safe, but I don't want it to feel like I'm retreating. Cause I'm not retreating. I'm just maybe picking up a few more tools to come back and like come back in a better way, if that makes sense. You know?
Isa Rodriguez: Yeah. Yeah.
Dylan Cale Jones: Sure. And I also want to hear about your, how you've been resting. How have you been resting? What do you do?
Isa Rodriguez: Tell us all about your rest.
Erin Owen: Oh goodness. Lately that's been like baking or going on like really long hikes. I think one last week was like nine miles. I want to get into things that I haven't gotten a chance to because of me being unwilling to hold that boundary with myself.
And I think when I shut down for the night, I want to shut down completely and being really intentional with my partner is such a priority with me.
And I hope that every day that we can go to bed together and have a really, really nice reset and the same thing for the morning too. I don't know, just being more intentional, I think is the overall theme of rest, but trying to take a breath.
Isa Rodriguez: Yeah. Love it.
Dylan Cale Jones: We have an off script question that we have started asking people, which is: How do you define success for yourself as an artist?
Erin Owen: Goodness success, I think it changes daily. I think there's different versions of success. Security for my family and to make sure that I can provide a life that makes me happy. I think those are my bottom lines as far as success, long term.
Short term, think that's the goal right now to figure that out. Cause I've definitely learned that it's not completing tasks, you know?
Dylan Cale Jones: So what is, what is a life that makes you happy look like?
Erin Owen: I think in a sense of, I guess, success in that sense... I really would love to create a sustainable small business that like me and my family can pour into, but it also is really pouring into the community. I think that's my biggest priority. I think success is genuinely finding my place in the community to uplift. And I feel like I'll start there. I mean, I think these are already in the works. So I guess I'm just not used to claiming them as success.
Dylan Cale Jones: Cool.
Erin Owen: Um, I have a question for you guys.
Isa Rodriguez: Yes. Oh, yeah. Feel free.
Erin Owen: I'm just interested to know what you guys think, the notion of games brings to, the art world, I guess. Like, how does, games help or hurt what I'm trying to talk about?
Dylan Cale Jones: I mean, I think of games as kind of like world building, right? And I really appreciate them for that. I've had a number of experiences actually, where I've been playing different games where the conditions of the game are unacceptable to me. Where I'm like, I will not play this game anymore. I do not like this game. I don't like the rules. I don't like the premise. I don't like the symbols. Right?
And then there's other games that I've played that are different. Where I'm like, 'Oh,' like, 'I like this world. This is bringing me joy and I feel a sense of connection rather than competition to the people that I'm playing with.'
So I think it sets up ways of people imagining the terms that they relate to other people with. And I think that's something that's super important for people to be doing right now. And I think games can bring us there in a way that is fun and inviting and welcoming. We talk about in our book how play is a kind of activity that allows people to behave in ways that would otherwise feel like risky or unsafe.
Isa Rodriguez: That it's fairly low stakes, right? That it has a parameter and it's like, 'Okay, I can try out being this way inside this game. And I think that that can be really helpful. I also think that games are an amazing learning tool.
Erin Owen: Super.
Isa Rodriguez: And a game could be designed to teach all kinds of different things. We have a lot of games that teach us capitalism, um, but we need more games that teach us other information.
Erin Owen: Yeah. I'm really interested in the games that are like, very equality driven. Like, no one can win this game unless everyone wins this game.
Isa Rodriguez:
Erin Owen: I think it's so fascinating. Relating like, game theory to humans. I feel like all play in games are just, like, tools for us to grow.
And I feel like once we're aware of it, we could do a lot of really fun, really, really fun things. and I'm interested to just, like, keep exploring that. Yeah.
Dylan Cale Jones: It's like, 'Oh, like you're having fun, but also all of a sudden you're thinking about these really serious things, but you don't even know it. It's I really liked that.
Erin Owen: I really like games that have nothing to do with winning, but are really generative. I like drawing games. Like Exquisite Corpse. I love Exquisite Corpse. I play it with my students all the time.
Isa Rodriguez: It like really opens people's imagination and also that it is a great practice of like removing authorship. That people work on things collaboratively and I really like games like that, that kind of like build something really strange together. And then, the way it sort of helps people let go of their need to control something.
Erin Owen: Yeah. Yeah. I genuinely love this. Exquisite corpse is one of my favorite thing ever. I feel like there's never a time where. Like you get a repetitive thing at all. You're just like, whoa.
Isa Rodriguez: And it's a great, it's a great icebreaker. Like you can play it with people who don't know each other at all. Right. Like it's, it's great. Great party game. Yeah. Yeah.
Erin Owen: So Erin, let's do our wrap up questions.
Isa Rodriguez: Yeah, let's wrap it up.
Dylan Cale Jones: What advice would you give for your past self? What did your past self need to hear that you could tell them now?
Erin Owen: Such a good question. I feel like... It is okay to let go of control, and to really lean in to just being a sponge. It will, like, only serve you, like, just better down the road. And that if it's tough, I promise it'll pay off every single time.
Isa Rodriguez: What do you mean being a sponge?
Erin Owen: Ooh, I think it's my favorite, it's my favorite thing to be. Just viewing the world with wonder and to not fight back when something's uncomfortable, but to be more encouraged to ask why and to wonder how something is working. To always just, like, move forward with wanting to understand.
Dylan Cale Jones: And what about advice that you would give to yourself in the future?
Erin Owen: You know, honestly, just to like slow down, and really enjoy the moments. Because why on earth am I working so hard if not to enjoy it? I feel like life as an artist is a really fun privilege that we have. And I hope my future self doesn't get bogged down with all of like, the cons of being an artist, or how stressful it could get.
Like, there's just so much more going on, and I hope I am appreciative of that, yeah.
Dylan Cale Jones: You're going to be a slow sponge in the future.
Erin Owen: Yep. Slow sponge.
Dylan Cale Jones: Well, Erin, it has been a pleasure talking to you. Thank you so much for joining us today.
Erin Owen: Thank you guys so much. This has been so wonderful.
Isa Rodriguez: Yeah. Thank you.
Dylan Cale Jones: Practice, Practice is created by Isa Rodriguez and Dylan Cale Jones. The music you heard in this episode is by Kate Jarboe.
Isa Rodriguez: This season of Practice Practice is funded by a Thrive Grant from the Oklahoma Visual Arts Coalition and the Andy Warhol Foundation.
Dylan Cale Jones: Thrive Grants fund community-driven, artist-led projects across the state of Oklahoma. Learn more and apply at ovac-ok.org
Erin Owen: I'm Erin Owen and you are listening to Practice Practice.