Isa Rodriguez: Hi, everyone. This is Isa Rodriguez.
Dylan Cale Jones: And this is Dylan Cale Jones, and you are listening to Practice, Practice.
Isa Rodriguez: And today we are talking to Black Masq. Black Masq, would you like to introduce yourself?
Black Masq: Yes, my name is Black Masq. I'm a visual artist, working in the Oklahoma City area. I specialize primarily in nude portraits of people in the Queer community.
Dylan Cale Jones: Alright. So we're here today to talk to you about your creative practice and we want to start at the beginning. So, what was your experience of creativity like as a young person?
Black Masq: Uh, when I was growing up I had, really bad asthma as a child and also as an adolescent. And it was triggered by, allergies and it was also triggered by exercise. So I couldn't really go outside and play basketball with the other children.
And also my parents were like, really, um, sheltering. It seemed like the older we got, the more sheltering they got.
And so, as a result of those two things, I spent a lot of time indoors. Much of my childhood was spending time indoors, just reading comic books, reading novels, writing short stories. I really wanted to be a writer when I grew up. Playing with action figures, which, I still do as a 30-something year old.
And so really my experience of creativity was, the act of kind of creating the world for myself because I wasn't really able to go out and experience it directly.
Isa Rodriguez: That's really interesting. Did you have any adults in your life that kind of modeled creative expression for you?
Black Masq: Hmm. Not anybody that I knew directly. Like, I was always kind of attracted, to reading about people who are, uh, I guess sort of iconoclasts. You know, people like Andy Warhol, people like, Mapplethorpe. Just creative figures who were sort of, not really trailblazing, but kind of transgressive in the type of art they created. So I was always really attracted and inspired by those people.
Dylan Cale Jones: Sure. And was that something that you kind of tested or played around with as a young person? Like trying to see how you could transgress in your creativity or was that something that you were just kind of looking at and getting inspired by?
Black Masq: I don't think there was ever a conscious, desire to be a badass or whatever. I guess it was just the fact that they were different. I was kind of a student of like, charismatic figures, really. I think that's what attracted me to those people really is that, they were true to themselves.
I think that's an essential ingredient of charismatic individuals. They're true to themselves. They're true to their own vision and they're just unique in a general way.
Isa Rodriguez: Yeah. I, I really appreciate that you mentioned Mapplethorpe.
I was wondering how, maybe about how old you were when you were introduced to his work.
Black Masq: I can remember seeing... I can't remember where I was or where I saw it, but I remember seeing this picture where it's a man in a well dressed suit and basically his dick is out out of his unzipped zipper. I just remember seeing that as a young person but I don't remember consciously knowing who Mapplethorpe was or knowing about the controversies involved with his work.
And it's interesting when I look at his stuff, it's not so much the sexual content and the visual shock value of it is his dedication to symmetry and things like that. That's really the thing I think about the most when I look at, um, his pieces.
It's also interesting because I hear almost nothing positive said about him as a person by anybody who knew him, even the people who are really dedicated to his work. So Hopefully, when I'm done with this project, this long term project I'm working on, hopefully I'll have a little bit better reputation than he's got.
Isa Rodriguez: I think that's a great, that's a great goal. He's sort of one of those, artists that we admire, but his creativity was sort of like out of balance, right? Like in terms of keeping his personal relationships healthy and like keeping himself healthy, while making his work.
Black Masq: Yeah. His pictures look almost like, I was thinking about this recently. They almost look like autopsies of individuals. What I'm trying to achieve with my own work is something that's a bit warmer. It's not this kind of cold antiseptic vision that he had. It's more like, it's more focused on the relationships between individuals instead of just the figures, if that makes sense.
Isa Rodriguez: Yeah, it does. You know, we looked at your work before you came over to interview and we were talking about seeing so much more expression in people's faces in your work and really appreciating that. Like there being a personality there and a person that's really there.
Black Masq: Exactly they're not just genitals in my pictures even though there are images I've taken that focus on that. There's always a person attached to it I try to keep in mind.
Isa Rodriguez: Yeah, yeah. I think it might be a good time for you to talk about your practice a little bit. Like, what is the project? What are you doing? Can you kind of describe it for people who haven't seen it yet?
Um, well, I, uh, take, nude portraits of people in the Queer community.
Black Masq: And the work is basically serving two purposes. It's kind of autobiographical in the sense that I'm documenting my, experiences and interactions with people that I encounter in the Queer community.
And it's also sort of a, um, project of reclamation in the sense that, obviously, living in a midwestern red state, it's a repressive environment, really. It's a really hostile environment. Because of that hostility, Queer folks are often required to self-censor or to pretend to be someone else just as a, a means of survival, really. They have to censor their identities, whether it's to maintain relationships with family members or to preserve their career prospects.
And so, what this project is essentially doing, what my work is essentially about, is finding a flamboyant way to try to rebel against that.
And people ask why are they always naked? And like I say, it's the most, visceral, and kind of out there way of reclaiming their identities and reclaiming agency over their bodies and their image as a Queer person.
Isa Rodriguez: Yeah. I mean, especially in Oklahoma, there's so much body policing that queer people experience.
Black Masq: Exactly. I was in a relationship with a guy a couple of years ago. He was living with me at the time and his dad was going to pick him up and they were going to have some family time together, I suppose. And I remember the door was wide open. It was the middle of the day when his father came and got him. And I remember he kissed me goodbye then immediately he started blushing and covered his mouth, because he was worried that his father would see him kissing me in here.
And, his father was, he knew about him being gay and he was accepting of him being gay as long as his son did not participate in homosexuality around him. As long as he didn't know about it or didn't see it.
Isa Rodriguez: Wow.
Black Masq: And so, I think about that very often. And that's really one of the experiences that is at the core of this work that I'm doing and also one of the things that I'm trying to kind of rebel against with this work.
Isa Rodriguez: Yeah, it's like being visible, right?
Dylan Cale Jones: Yeah. And that, that visibility is really powerful I think. One of the things that I see when I look at your images like in your statement and what you've said too, is like, one of the things that you talk about is power. Another thing that I think of is just like humanity. Right?
And one of the things that is so frustrating and ridiculous about the political conversations in Oklahoma and other places is like putting people's humanity up for debate. And the images that you make, I see the just like humanity emanating from these people. And I think like, "How could anybody possibly put this up for debate?"
Black Masq: There's so many conversations I've had where Queer people have talked about, you know, the family relations, not just the political environment, but being ostracized by their families for being gay and having to not be gay around the family and stuff like that.
And there's always like a, often a religious reason, you know, it's the Bible says you shouldn't do this and stuff like that.
I often think, well, if God didn't want us to do this, if he didn't want Gay people to be around, it wouldn't feel so good.
And that's what you see in my work is the joy that everybody has, showing their bodies and interacting with other bodies at the same time in this very Queer kind of space really
Isa Rodriguez: Yeah. Yeah.
Black Masq: By Queer we should say that this is sort of a catch all, um, terminology that I use to describe people who are lesbian, bisexual, gay, that kind of thing.
I feel like there's kind of a generational divide, where, older Queer people are very, um, kind of sensitive and really, um, sort of triggered by the term queer because back then it was used as a pejorative, but it has since become by the younger generation sort of appropriated.
So that's the context behind using the term Queer.
Isa Rodriguez: Yeah. Yeah. I think that, that we are sort of on the same page cause we're all about the same age. Queer for me is this really broad term that I would define it as sort of like non-normative, right?
Like it includes all kinds of people with all kinds of expressions that are marginalized. Right? But then it's sometimes I talked to even younger people, right, and they're like, well, I'm not queer. I'm specifically whatever, you know, like, I don't even know. They have like a bunch of specific identifiers that they put all in like a line.
And it's like this, this, and this, and this, which is different than Queer. And I'm like, okay, yeah.
Black Masq: I'm glad we contextualize that, since it's far more controversial, as you mentioned, in the community than it seems for people who are comfortable with that term.
Dylan Cale Jones: I really like the term Queer because it's so open that it can defy recognition and like refuses recognition, which for me as a Queer person, is really important. I see the importance of people being able to say like, I'm Gay or I'm Bisexual or I'm Trans or I'm Non-binary or any of those things. And being able to identify something specific about that experience and share it with people, but also for myself, the pressure to categorize myself feels really kind of invasive sometimes.
And I'm really interested in like, how can we set up our social relations with each other?
Black Masq: Where it's not just based on labels.
Dylan Cale Jones: Yeah, exactly. And it isn't about categorization.
Isa Rodriguez: Yeah. So then Queer being kind of slippery is really helpful for that because then you actually need to like talk to someone and see what they want to reveal, and like kind of, you know, actually get to know somebody.
Black Masq: Which is something I've experienced, not just as a Queer person, but as a Black person as well. Oftentimes, especially with other Black people, you encounter them, they'll say, "What are you?" if your skin color is a different tone. They're not trying to be rude when they ask that they're just generally curious and trying to find something that they can kind of get a handle on in their mind to learn more about you.
Isa Rodriguez: Yeah. Yeah. Uh, I experienced a really similar thing in the Latinx community. It depends on the tone. Sometimes I feel offended. Sometimes I feel flexible about answering. Yeah.
Dylan Cale Jones: So some of the things that we're talking about, transition well into your life outside of this specific creative practice. So I wonder if you could tell us what else is going on in your life? What other aspects of your life are you trying to balance with your creative practice right now?
Black Masq: I feel like I'm really in a sort of privileged position in terms of how I'm able to fit my creative practice in with my day to day life.
I'm fortunate enough to have a white collar job that affords me the opportunity to take time off when I need to-- to shoot pictures, to meet people and discuss the possibility of taking pictures and just generally take time off to practice my art.
It's important to note that not all capital-A Artists are able to do like residencies where they're able to be sequestered away from the world and just have the opportunity to make art for weeks or months at a time.
I think it might be more common that, uh, you have a day job and you work on your art at night or you work on your art over the weekend or you work on your art when you're able to take time off. And like I said, I'm really in a privileged position in the sense that I have a white collar job where I can take time off to practice art when I need to.
Not everybody, um, is in such a position.
Dylan Cale Jones: Is taking time off the main way that you schedule making art? Or are there ways that you sort of balance it while you're continuing to work as well?
Black Masq: Uh, the way my art comes together, it really happens in a lot of different ways. A lot of times, in terms of recruiting models, a lot of these folks are people that I've met on dating apps like Grindr or Tinder. We may get together for, in the beginning, just like a hookup situation and in the course or after that, I'll ask, hey, is this something you might be interested in doing, pose for my pictures? And they'll say, "yeah," or, "no," or something like that.
Um, a lot of times these are folks that I've met on, you know, Instagram and ask if this is something they might be interested in doing. And so, depending on their schedule, they might come in the middle of the day, they might come, you know, on the weekends, it just depends on their schedule, really.
Do you feel like you also need to balance your family separate from your work and separate from your, like, work life?
Isa Rodriguez: Your artwork and your work life?
Black Masq: I smile when you ask that because it's really a necessity with the types of pictures that I take. I'm specializing in basically nude portraiture of queer people. And my parents, unfortunately are, very conservative, very homophobic, and are not really, uh, supportive of the artwork at all.
My mother has seen my work and declared that it's evil and something that shouldn't be seen, something that should be destroyed and stuff like that. Which has not persuaded me to stop making it.
Isa Rodriguez: Um, that sounds really challenging, right? Like emotionally challenging to hear that.
Black Masq: Hmm. That's true.
Isa Rodriguez: Yeah.
Black Masq: Well, it can be. There's a queer comedian, Margaret Cho, and she said, " If you are persecuted for, uh, your sexuality, for who you love, you are just going to kick up your heels and keep on doing it anyway!"
There are times where I wish that my family was more supportive of my work, but I wouldn't say it's a necessity. I wouldn't say it's something that has made me think twice about continuing to do it. I still take the pictures and exhibit them and all this other stuff and in a way as if they did support it and maybe one day that will come around.
Isa Rodriguez: Do you find support in other places?
Black Masq: Yes. Uh, well, I would say in pockets. Um, I think something that's been sort of, an occasional, uh, frustration to me is that, it's been very difficult to find places locally that are interested in exhibiting or promoting the type of art that I make.
But I do find pockets of support around. I'm currently in a relationship with somebody, we just had our one year anniversary, and they're very supportive of my work. They're always very complimentary about my art, always telling me I'm, uh, very talented and that kind of thing. So that's really encouraging to me.
I don't think any artist really makes art for the purpose of adulation or accolades or awards or that kind of thing. You really make art for yourself to satisfy yourself. It's from a desire to please myself and arrive at something that I'm happy with personally. But it is nice when I find those pockets of support.
One of the folks that I've taken pictures of, they recently sent me a link to this local gallery that I had never heard of before. It was like an open call for Queer artists, which I would never have seen if they hadn't forwarded it on to me.
Dylan Cale Jones: It sounds like an important aspect of your work is relationality.
I see your art also as being kind of a way of building a community of people who are interested in, in this kind of expression. Which I think is really beautiful.
Isa Rodriguez: Yeah. It was also like the network or the community that it all kind of folds in together.
Black Masq: Yeah. I really think of it kind of as an effort, a documentary reality, really. These are not just people have been recruited from model agencies, They're actually people in the community who are really interested in getting to know each other.
And it's also helpful that the setting where I take the pictures is my home. When people first come to shoot, they say, "Well, where's the studio?" and I say, "You're in it."
And I think that that really contributes. The kind of domestic environment there really contributes to the sense of comfort and the sense of authenticity. That's really another thing, essentially, I think my work boils down to is authenticity, almost to the point of artlessness really.
I see a lot of, you know, posts and stuff like that on Instagram where everything is very produced, very polished. And I'm looking for something that's a bit more, a bit more raw, I think.
Something that I wanted, that I'm really interested in talking to you about is boundaries.
Dylan Cale Jones: When we asked you to do this interview, you were very clear about some of the things that you needed, right? Like you were like, "I need to get paid. There are certain things that I don't want to talk about."
That's something that I really like and something that I think is really important. And I'm wondering also about what kind of boundaries you have with the people who you photograph and how else boundaries play into your practice and the way that you think about your art.
Black Masq: I meet with a therapist every other week. And one of the things that we work on really is how to define your boundaries as a, as a Queer person.
Like I mentioned earlier, I grew up in a family that was extremely, controlling. They did not have any boundaries when it came to their children. I remember my dad, he used to cut my hair. He was a barber in the army.
And if I wanted it a particular way, he would just cut it the way that he liked. And so then I started going to a barber in Oklahoma City and paying 40 dollars, however much it is, to get it done because you know, you have to have control of your own identity and your own presentation and that kind of thing.
And that's the type of thing that I afford to my models. On the back end, in terms of what's done with the images after we're done shooting them, the model has complete control over where they go.
Different people have different deals or different arrangements that they want. For example, someone may say it's alright to post them on Instagram, but it's not okay to use them at shows. Or it's okay to use them at shows, but to have them anywhere online. And so that's a conversation that we have after the pictures have been done. There are entire photo shoots I have that have never seen the light of day and never will see the light of day because the model said this is just for you.
So I think that's really where it comes from is having a childhood that, where you know what it feels like to have your boundaries not respected. You want to make sure that the people that you interact with don't have that same experience as well.
In terms of the boundaries that we have, while we're shooting the pictures, that's something that's talked about ahead of time as well. What level of touching are you comfortable with?
What body parts are you comfortable with? Are you comfortable with this? Are you comfortable with that? And also throughout the shoot, you're constantly checking with the person. Is this okay? Is that okay? Make sure you've looked at my art and seen what it looks like. See what it entails, and then tell me what your boundaries are.
There's nothing fake about it. The kissing that you see, the sex that you see, the touching you see, it's all reality. It's not posed. They're things that happen naturally in the course of shooting the pictures. They're things that naturally come out of the conversation between myself and the people that I shoot with.
So it's all about, authenticity and finding something that's natural, something that's real.
Dylan Cale Jones: It sounds like you have a really clear project that you're working on and a really clear mode of working. What was happening before that? Like, how, how did you get into this project? Has it always been photography? What was your creative practice like before you came to this?
Black Masq: I am not classically trained in photography or art or anything like that. My major in college was something totally different. The closest thing I had doing a formal training with photography was a class that we took in high school and it was dark room photography. We were taking pictures with film cameras and then developing the film in these dark rooms. And then after that I didn't touch cameras at all, for like 14 or 15 years after that.
I was with a partner I think in 2018, 2019, something like that. And I was really into like, just taking pictures casually, I guess, with my iPhone. And she would look at my art and she would say to me, " You're really good. You should make an Instagram or something like that."
So I took her advice and I did. But I did it not really having any conception, I guess, of what, I wanted to take pictures of. People would say to me, you have an eye, but it wasn't anything quite like this.
So I got a professional camera, and while I was at home alone for that year during the pandemic in 2020, I just started taking pictures of myself that kind of resembled, looking back on it, the type of art that I was consuming at the time, which was a lot of Queer-oriented art, a lot of art by queer creators. Kind of honing, I guess, what I wanted to see and the look that I wanted to pursue.
And so anyway, I would start posting this stuff on Instagram and eventually people started noticing and they wanted me to take pictures of them. And these would be people who are in the Queer community, people who are sex workers who want content created for their OnlyFans or whatever. So I did that.
And gradually just over time, I started honing the look of my pictures, putting things together piece by piece in that way is how I arrived where I am with my art.
Dylan Cale Jones: And is there a specific place that you see this project going? Like an exhibition or a book or anything particular like that? Or is it more something that you're just building and letting unfold?
Black Masq: Right now I'm less focused on posting material online and more focused on just getting stuff out there in galleries and shows.
The shows are really something I truly enjoy. Partially because I'm curious and seeing what people expect when they meet me. Do they expect to see this kind of out of control crazy guy who's just ripping his clothes off all the time? Or, you know, what do they expect? And also hearing the direct feedback from people about, the effect that my art has had upon them and you know, how they feel represented through my work.
So that's really something, it's kind of the main aspiration, I suppose, getting it in local galleries and getting it seen by people in person.
Looking at recent legislation, we're coming to a period in time where there will be less freedom for people in the future than there has been in the past in terms of the type of content that they have access to. And so that's something that's really important is getting my art in places where people can congregate, specifically Queer people can congregate and get them seen.
Dylan Cale Jones: Is there anything in your practice that is changing or evolving right now that you want to talk about?
Black Masq: I've traditionally shot with a crop sensor camera, but I recently purchased a full frame camera, which is a larger, format camera with a larger sensor.
I had a shoot last week where none of the pictures came out looking good. They came out looking out-of-focus, and so I've been trying to practice with this new camera, with the settings and things like that. So I think that's kind of a humorous story. I have to get back with the person and say, "Hey, these pictures, they all look terrible. Can we have a do, do over?"
. I've upgraded the quality of the equipment and also, I'm learning more about exhibition presentation of, my work. I've upgraded the quality of the frames I'm using. I'm using a different type of archival paper that gives the pictures more of a fine art look to them when you see them in person. So those are the things that are changing.
Black Masq: How do I feel about that? I can see, like, the little things that I've refined over time, I suppose. The pictures have become darker, the colors pop out a bit more. There's more of a, um, kind of reflection, I guess, of the isolation that Queer people live in. So, that's something I'm reflecting on, I guess, as I go through the journey of refining my techniques and refining the things that I'm using.
Isa Rodriguez: Sure. I think that's really relatable. Like, I change so much, right? And I can, I can remember who I was when I took the photograph. And sometimes it's hard to, look back on that.
Right? But, you know, sometimes it can be also. Like I can look back on it with appreciation or like kindness, you know?
Black Masq: You were growing.
Isa Rodriguez: Like, the person I was then helped me get to where I am now. Yeah. With that in mind, do you have any advice that you would give to your past self?
Black Masq: I Remember years ago, there was somebody who was on a similar journey, I suppose, as myself with photography.
It was a guy on Grindr. He had asked me if I was interested in posing for his sort of boudoir type images. He did kind of boudoir photographs of gay men and he asked me if I would like to participate in that. And at that time I thought about it a little bit and I said, no, I'm not really comfortable doing this.
The journey, I guess, becoming an out queer person was like really slow for me. It happened kind of later in life, and so at the time I wasn't really comfortable doing that. But looking back on it, having seen the ways that I have changed since then, I kind of regret not having said yes.
Black Masq: So I guess looking back on that, well, I'd probably say just be bolder. We talked about, you know, how I set the boundaries, I guess, and the parameters in the beginning about what I wanted from the interview and what I expected.
And that is a result of a lot of practice. You know, expressing boundaries, expressing yourself, expressing your own wants, asserting your own identity. Those are things that I had to kind of practice and get used to over time.
Because it wasn't an experience that had been afforded to me in my childhood. I had to develop those skills, really. Being someone who's proud in your identity is a skill in itself, I suppose. So that's something I would advise my past self. I, I regret the experiences that I didn't take back then. I regret the timidity with which I approached much of my day to day life, really.
So I don't think anyone can go wrong with the advice to just be bolder.
Isa Rodriguez: Yeah, I agree.
Dylan Cale Jones: Is there anything else that you want to talk about or want us to ask you about or stories you want to share with us?
Black Masq: We talked about the direction that my work is going. And I think I mentioned something about the exhibition opportunities. And so recently I've, found a local gallery in Oklahoma City. It's called Point A Gallery.
It's an art gallery, but it's not exclusively that. It's almost like a community Queer artistic space, really. And they've recently accepted ten pieces that I have and they're going to be on exhibition at the gallery.
So I'm very excited about seeing those and having Queer people have a space where they can come and congregate in a healthy atmosphere and actually see my work as part of that. The pieces are, much more ambitious, I guess, than anything I've done before in terms of exhibition. Like I mentioned earlier, it's been very difficult to find places in Oklahoma City that are open to this kind of work. So I'm very grateful to find a gallery, not just a gallery, but a Queer space that will exhibit my work. So I'm very thankful to Point A.
Dylan Cale Jones: Yeah, that's really exciting.
That's great.
Isa Rodriguez: That sounds really promising. Yeah.
Black Masq: Yeah, I'm very excited about it.
Isa Rodriguez: Something that we keep going back to is that Queer people, we need to make our own spaces and we need to do things on our own terms. Right? And it can be challenging, especially for Queer people who don't have a lot of financial resources or material resources.
I mean, which we should say is like most Queer people, chronically, right? Like part of being a Queer person is to be like, put at a financial disadvantage in our culture. Yeah.
Dylan Cale Jones: And so that can be really challenging, but when those spaces open up, it's so important. And so I hope we keep seeing more of that and I'm excited to check out Point A gallery.
Black Masq: Yeah, they're very promising, I think. They're already doing so much work that's really positive for Queer people in the community, so I'm very excited to be involved with them.
Isa Rodriguez: Yeah, fantastic
Dylan Cale Jones: Well, thank you so much for talking with us today. It was a great conversation.
Isa Rodriguez: Yeah, this has been delightful.
Black Masq: Thank you for having me, my pleasure.
Dylan Cale Jones: Practice, Practice is created by Isa Rodriguez and Dylan Cale Jones. The music you heard in this episode is by Kate Jarboe.
Isa Rodriguez: This season of Practice Practice is funded by a Thrive Grant from the Oklahoma Visual Arts Coalition and the Andy Warhol Foundation.
Dylan Cale Jones: Thrive Grants fund community-driven, artist-led projects across the state of Oklahoma. Learn more and apply at ovac-ok. org
Black Masq: Maybe I should try the introduction again, because I was kind of short on that.
Isa Rodriguez: Yeah, we can do that again.
Black Masq would you like to introduce yourself?
Black Masq: Yes, my name is Black Masq. I'm a visual artist, working in the Oklahoma City area. I specialize primarily in nude portraits of people in the Queer community.
Isa Rodriguez: Fantastic. Yeah, is there anything else that you would like to tell us about your work?
Black Masq: Banana.
Dylan Cale Jones: I'm glad we got to use the safe word.