Dylan Cale Jones: My name is Dylan Cale Jones.
Isa Rodriguez: And I'm Isa Rodriguez. And this is Practice Practice.
Dylan Cale Jones: Today we are sitting down and interviewing Denise Duong.
Denise, would you like to introduce yourself and tell our listeners a little bit about who you are?
Denise Duong: Hello, I am Denise Duong. I am a Vietnamese American artist from Oklahoma City and I paint on canvas quite a bit. I used to do a lot of mixed media on my canvases, but now I'm mostly just paint, mostly acrylic and ink.
And then I do a lot of murals in Oklahoma City, and, you know, around the country. And I have a gallery called Little D Gallery over in the Paseo.
Dylan Cale Jones: I stopped by that gallery. I can't, I can't remember. It must have been about a year, a year and a half ago. And y'all were doing something like helping people register to vote or having mail in ballots there or something like that.
Denise Duong: Yeah. Yeah. And We'll have a show in October with Let's Fix This.
Dylan Cale Jones: Oh, okay. So what are y'all doing for that?
Denise Duong: We're in in the middle of discussing what we're doing. So I'm not super clear about it, but it's about voting. Like getting people to register to vote and get out there and vote, because we have a big election year.
Dylan Cale Jones: Okay, and for those who don't know can you explain what Let's Fix This is?
Denise Duong: It is an organization that educates voters on how to register to vote, how to vote, where to vote, when to vote. And also it kind of helps educate voters on what they're voting on. And, and you know, it doesn't lean towards anything. It's just educating.
Dylan Cale Jones: Okay.
Denise Duong: Everyone
Isa Rodriguez: Just like making that information less confusing.
Dylan Cale Jones: Yeah. It is confusing and it often comes off as boring even though it's not really boring. It's really important and interesting, but I think having people being able to deliver that information is really important.
Denise Duong: For sure. Yeah.
Isa Rodriguez: So how did you experience creativity when you were young?
Denise Duong: I have a very vivid memory of whenever I was in kindergarten and I was drawing. And I remember thinking, this feels really good to me and I love doing this. because we got asked all the time, what do you want to be when you grow up? And of course, I kept it to myself that I wanted to be an artist because I didn't want to hear my parents, my mom saying, you know, like, "Okay, that's cool but, you know, let's get real." Yeah. Even as a kindergartner. But, um, the need to create was such a strong sensation and need for for me. And that was all growing up. And I was and I always thought this is the only thing I can do. And so I'm gonna just pursue it and take that risk.
Isa Rodriguez: Okay. Yeah. Did you have any examples around you when you were young of someone who pursued the arts like that?
Denise Duong: I remember in the third grade, I had a teacher that could whip up a cartoon so fast. I was like, "Oh, I want to be able to draw lines like him!" But he was the only one that made me feel like you could do art as a living. He was our art teacher in the third grade. And I was like, ah, I like that guy.
Isa Rodriguez: So it sounds like you had art in school when you were growing up too.
Denise Duong: Yeah.
Dylan Cale Jones: Okay, it's interesting to hear you say that you knew already when you were five to keep that to yourself, about wanting to be an artist. Where do you think you were getting those signals from?
Denise Duong: I don't know if it's for everybody's family, but Vietnamese families, our parents are pretty, you know, like straightforward on their opinions on what you're going to do with your future.
Isa Rodriguez: So you started like receiving those messages pretty early.
Denise Duong: Yeah.
Yeah. And then, I mean nobody pressured me to go into anything. They just made like some just suggestions. But I've seen them, you know, like, talk to the older ones. And I'm like, "No, I'll just avoid that."
Dylan Cale Jones: So what was your drawing like when you were a really young person and how did it kind of progress as you got older?
Denise Duong: Well when I was really little I loved bears. I have so many drawings of bears doing like all sorts of things, everyday things. And I started in high school playing around with different materials and content.
And then I feel like where I really honed in on my style and what I do now was whenever I was living in Chicago in early 2000. I would wait and sit for the train and I have this big long scroll of paper. And while I was waiting for the train, I draw and I take in whatever was going on around me.
And interpret it on this piece of paper and I carried it everywhere because...
Isa Rodriguez: It sounds really cool.
Denise Duong: And so I mean I think about you know people have cell phones now and they don't do things like sit and read when they're waiting for the train. Draw or write or whatever. Yeah, I wonder if myself would I have if I had a cell phone back then would I have been drawing, you know?
Isa Rodriguez: Or would you have been in the phone?
Denise Duong: Right.
Isa Rodriguez: Yeah, that's really interesting. Yeah. We both lived in Chicago for about the last six years before we moved to Oklahoma. And so I know what you're talking about, about that space around the commute is a space that can be really creative or it can sort of just disappear into nothing.
Dylan Cale Jones: Yeah. What's your connection to Chicago?
Denise Duong: Well, I went to school there for like a year.
Dylan Cale Jones: Where'd you go to school?
Denise Duong: School of the Art Institute.
Dylan Cale Jones: And did you just live there for that year while you were going to school?
Denise Duong: Yeah.
Dylan Cale Jones: What was that like?
Denise Duong: It was the most fun ever. It was my first time to leave Oklahoma City.
Dylan Cale Jones: Oh, okay.
Denise Duong: And it was this sense of freedom and you know, this is my life now. I'm not sharing it with family or friends back in Oklahoma. This is like my new journey. And so it was a really exciting time.
Dylan Cale Jones: So, can you tell us about what your practice is like now?
Denise Duong: My work has always been pretty personal. And I feel like my work is at another level of personal, where it dives into the human psyche and the depths of emotions that we have as humans.
And myself, especially after Covid. That was a wild year. But I'm incorporating drawing a lot more into my artwork, because I was just painting. And so I've incorporated a lot of the drawing, 'cause there's like a more personal level to me with the ink pen. And so incorporating that with the paintings, I feel like takes it to another level.
Isa Rodriguez: Can you describe some of your images for our listeners, like the kinds of subject matter you do and, and what you would say it looks like?
Denise Duong: I've been focusing on the many layers we have in ourselves. And so when you peel back different layers, they mean different things.
Like there's a, you know, a part of us that... like, for me, I have the wild side, but then I have this motherly side, and then I have this creative side. Also like a very emotional side and a very happy side. So like, you know, we all have these layers, these intricate layers in ourselves.
And so peeling those back. And so the images have a lot of different versions of ourselves. Like, in one person there could be three or four people coming out of them. And then all the little intricate stories that are coming out of them as well. Or maybe in the inks, whenever I'm drawing all the characters coming out of them.
Dylan Cale Jones: So one thing I was curious about, that you mentioned, was you said that the COVID-19 pandemic sort of changed the way that you were thinking about or approaching your work. What happened? How did it change?
Denise Duong: For me, I got pregnant during COVID and, you know, it was a surprise. Being pregnant was easy. I was still painting murals the entire time I was, um, pregnant. But before COVID I was traveling quite a bit, like nonstop around the world.
And then COVID hit and it shut everything down and I was stuck in Oklahoma. And then to have a child and then having to, rearrange my, my brain on how to accept my new reality.
I was actually in a really good place because I had a new relationship with Gabriel and got to get to know Ollie during the pandemic. So I was in a good mental space, but also in a very new space where it was like unchartered territories of emotions I had never experienced before. And so I started using different materials, like colored inks, more and but in a very sporadic way.
Isa Rodriguez: And so sort of like splashes of emotions.
Denise Duong: I started using pen and ink a lot more. And it gave this more fluid and spontaneous experience on the paper. And I felt like that was therapeutic. And so I went through a whole series of making a ton of those.
Dylan Cale Jones: Uh, and you, you said that you experienced new emotions. What kinds of new emotions did you experience?
Denise Duong: It kind of felt like outer body experience. Like I was looking at myself from outside of myself. And so we did a show shortly after the mask mandate was lifted in Norman and it was called Left Hand of Liminality.
And it's kind of about having that outer body experience, um, because I think everybody was kind of in that state of of emotional limbo. And I guess that happens when you are in this survival mode is you experience life in like a different realm, I guess.
Isa Rodriguez: Sure. Yeah. It's like a different way of processing it.
Dylan Cale Jones: And can you tell us about what your mural painting practice is like?
Denise Duong: I don't work like most people with murals. I make up a lot of it as I go. So I go into painting the murals by just doing a really rough sketch and then whenever I'm at the actual site, that's whenever I, I start creating it. So it can be kind of daunting at first.
Dylan Cale Jones: Yeah. Do you ever find people expressing resistance to that kind of process? Or have you kind of like established yourself enough now where people are like, "Oh, okay, it's fine, just go ahead and do your thing"?
Denise Duong: Yeah. I haven't had resistance. Thank God.
Dylan Cale Jones: Oh, okay.
Yeah. Cool. Cool.
Denise Duong: Even like whenever I've, I've had to present to the arts commission what I'm doing, and I'm like, you guys know it's, you know, it's basically going to look like this.
Dylan Cale Jones: That's amazing. Cool.
Isa Rodriguez: Yeah. Yeah. That's nice. Also, it sounds like you really trust yourself to just go for it. Right? I experience a lot of thinking about what I'm going to do before I do it.
And it sounds really freeing to just jump in like that.
Denise Duong: Yeah, I'm I'm very much a if I get to the waterfall, I'm supposed to jump in. If I think about it too long, then I won't jump. So just jump.
Isa Rodriguez: I want to ask about your relationship to location since you're here in Oklahoma City. And I know you do a lot of site specific work. And so I'm wondering how Oklahoma City has influenced your practice.
If you feel the influence of this place or if, if your practice is sort of like resisting it or, or just outside of that, what you think about that.
Denise Duong: I spent a lot of time leaving Oklahoma City to get inspiration. And so being here more has been interesting. And I think that was a big transition with COVID as well, because I was like going places to be inspired. Like, I would travel and take in wherever I was at and then I would come back here and translate it onto a bunch of canvases. Whereas during COVID I didn't have that option and I had to dig deeper into myself to get that inspiration.
Isa Rodriguez: Do you consider your work with Little D Gallery as part of your creative practice? And what is running that space like?
Denise Duong: I never really wanted to ever own a business. It was like another. thing that would tie me from doing things.
But actually, it's been a really great experience to have. Creatively, I love having the space because it gives the opportunity for other artists that have ideas for shows they want, you know, want a space to show.
And it also is a space where I can express things with other artists that we feel passionate about. Like, I've had quite a few political shows. We've had a lot of fundraisers for different causes. And so I'm really happy about having that space for that. We can all connect and, and utilize the space for, for good.
Isa Rodriguez: How does that process usually work of having the idea for an exhibition and executing it?
Denise Duong: The gallery's been open, I think, six years, and this is our first year to actually have a calendar.
Dylan Cale Jones: Cool.
Denise Duong: And so we actually have months filled. And I did leave open months near the election time, knowing that I wanted to do something political.
Isa Rodriguez: Yeah. And then kind of trusting that the right thing was going to fall into place there. If you left that space open for it.
Denise Duong: Yeah. And it's women's month and so we have Marilyn Artus showing her work there and she's big into all the things women rights.
Isa Rodriguez: Okay. Very cool. What are you really excited about coming up in the programming?
Denise Duong: Let's see. What do we got? What do we have going on?
Isa Rodriguez: What's going to be happening around June?
Denise Duong: Oh, June. See, actually we have nothing going on in June. June is our recovery month from the arts festival. Okay. So it's usually a neglected group of artists show at the gallery during the Paseo Art Walk. And then June is our recovery. And then July we have an abstract show put together by Narciso. Then we have small works in September. And then we have the Let's Fix This show in October. And we'll probably have something political going on the beginning of November as well. And we have, ACLU's joining us in May.
Dylan Cale Jones: So, Denise what else are you balancing with your art practice in your life?
Denise Duong: I feel like everything's balancing some of the art practice. Cause its' like oh, you had to do your taxes.
Dylan Cale Jones: We're thinking about that too.
Denise Duong: But outside of it, I mean, I'm constantly figuring out where to travel and do things. I just want to be on nature as much as possible. And I really want our girls to be around that as well. And so I know that tick season is coming up. So I'm like, I have to think of other ways to be outside.
Dylan Cale Jones: Where do you like to go with your kids when you bring them out into nature?
Denise Duong: Well, in Oklahoma City, I find it kind of rough sometimes to try to figure that one out, but we go to Stinchcomb.
And then in April, because I'm doing some work out in Oregon, we're gonna go out there and get out into the woods and do something.
Dylan Cale Jones: Oh, that's great. Very cool. Yeah.
So , do you find it? Hmm. What am I trying to ask?
Denise Duong: Hard to work in the studio that's connected to your home?
Dylan Cale Jones: Yeah. Like, yeah. So maybe like, yeah, like what's, what's your, cause we don't know about that stuff. What's the actual day to day, like for you being an artist, what does it look like?
Denise Duong: Well before I had a family, I would work from probably like eight PM till like five in the morning. And I never woke up in double digits. Even if I went to bed at five, I always woke up before it turned double digits.
Dylan Cale Jones: Oh wow. Okay.
Denise Duong: But now it's, um, you know, I wake up and get the kids to school and then I get into my studio and I work . And then as soon as I get the kids home, kid, kiddo goes to bed and then we go back into the studio and work.
Isa Rodriguez: Wow.
Denise Duong: So, and I feel like my brain never shuts off because I'm like, it's just right there. I'm so close.
Isa Rodriguez: Yeah. So your studio is in your home.
Denise Duong: Yeah. It's a detached garage that Gabe converted into a really nice studio during the pandemic.
Isa Rodriguez: That's really convenient. If you're going to be working in those in between spaces that you can get, like that you can fit in around the responsibilities of parenting. Having it right there sounds like it's really helpful. Yeah.
Denise Duong: Yeah.
Dylan Cale Jones: Oh, it sounds, how do you keep your energy up?
Denise Duong: I don't know. I wonder the same thing. But I oddly feel like more myself when I'm sleep deprived. Because I was so used to it for so long.
And then once I had a kid, that's the most I've ever slept in my life.
Dylan Cale Jones: Wow. Yeah. Okay. Interesting. What is it like having kids and balancing that with an art practice?
Denise Duong: It took some figuring out, but it seemed like a very natural transition because I'm a natural night owl, except for that was the one thing I had to learn how to switch around and work around.
It is hard whenever you are in the middle of something and you want to so badly, you know, I'm like, I just want to get right there, but she won't let me get there.
Dylan Cale Jones: Yeah, we've talked with a couple other artists. We were talking to Martha Coates and she was saying how hard it is for her to get into flow state.
Denise Duong: Yeah, I would say it is hard to get into the zone. But luckily our child goes to school and we drop her off and then I'm like, okay, I got this many hours. Go, go!, But it does take a while. So I just put some headphones on and allow myself like 15 minutes of basically prep.
And so I just, I start writing and I don't lift up the pen. No room for thought. Just go for it. Just, you know, just...
Isa Rodriguez: ...like automatic?
Denise Duong: Yeah.
Isa Rodriguez: Yeah. Get it. Get the pump primed.
Denise Duong: Yeah. And then so like, you get all these thoughts organized on the paper.
And then same with drawing. Just doodle, just doodle and sketch without any pauses.
Dylan Cale Jones: And so it sounds like you're also able to make a living as an artist. Is that like always been the case or is that something that's changed? If so, how did that transition happen?
Denise Duong: I started professionally doing art since the early 2000s. Like, 2006 . 'Cause it was before Obama became president.
I remember I got picked up by a couple of galleries and then I start feeling way more confident on what I was doing. My artwork was published in an art publication.
And then it kind of followed, And so I feel really, really like lucky and blessed that this all came to where it's at now.
Isa Rodriguez: Yeah. And it's easier once you have one to like turn that into two in terms of proving that you can fit in that system of selling work and making work and showing work. What's your favorite thing about working in that way?
Denise Duong: Well, I do love getting to travel there to where the galleries are.
I have a handful of galleries that have been very supportive of watching my artwork transition and transform through all these years. And so that's been interesting to see and hear their feedback on. On that.
Isa Rodriguez: Yeah. So those are some pretty long relationships. Yeah. Yeah. What's, what's the hardest thing for you about being a gallery artist who's working that way in the world?
Denise Duong: I guess the hardest thing would be remembering to fulfill, like, "Hey, remember you said you're going to send me three paintings."
I'm like, "Ooh, sorry."
Isa Rodriguez: okay. So are you working, um, do you have any assistants or anything?
Denise Duong: I don't. No.
Isa Rodriguez: So you're like the artist and the accountant and the administrator.
Denise Duong: Yeah. I mean, I've spent the last week not making art because I've been on my computer and I'm like, how do people do this?
Dylan Cale Jones: Wow. Yeah.
Denise Duong: I sent my accountant all the numbers from Excel and I printed it out and I hand wrote a letter and I realized I was like, I bet you nobody does this.
I was like, everybody probably emails her these numbers and types her out email. I was like, I'm like a old lady over here, writing, like handwriting a letter.
Isa Rodriguez: Hand drawing...
Denise Duong: Using a highlighter and like, these are the numbers. I was like, I don't think I'm being very efficient right now. I was like, because I'm an artist, I don't know what I'm doing.
Isa Rodriguez: Yeah, that's something that's not really trained into artists in the same way that it is to a lot of other career paths.
Denise Duong: Right. And whenever I finally got an accountant, I'm like, "Thank goodness, because I have no idea what I'm doing."
Isa Rodriguez: and I've been doing it for years.
Dylan Cale Jones: Yeah, we started trying to figure that out on our own last year and it's a lot to learn.
Isa Rodriguez: Is there anything that's changing in your practice right now?
Denise Duong: Well, I'm trying to be a little bit more prepared when I go paint murals.
Isa Rodriguez: Okay. Yeah.
Denise Duong: I have the supplies. I have all the things I need. But I'd like to have a little bit sketched out, because sometimes I'll sit on the lift and I'm like, I could have done this on the plane here, or something.
Last year when I was in Salt Lake City, I did a really big mural. And I would finish a portion of it and I'm exhausted and I get home and I'm like, well, can't go to sleep cause I need to sketch out the second portion of it.
And I kind of like doing that because It's a little bit spontaneous. And when I'm painting the murals I do have that space to myself where I can, uh, doodle and sketch the ideas and whatnot.
Isa Rodriguez: Well, it sounds like just tweaking your process a little bit.
Sometimes I ask myself questions like, well, okay, I know how to do it this way, but if I did it a different way this time, would the world fall apart or would it be fine? Right. And I could just try it and see. Since I think we also get told as artists that once we find our thing, that's the only thing that's ever going to work for us, right?
Like what would happen , if I broke this rule about how I do this? And if I find that everything does fall apart, I'm like, okay, nevermind.
Denise Duong: Well, I always thought that whenever I was painting a mural, like having headphones and the music helped me make up some of these characters I would paint. But the most recent mural I was at, it was at a construction site and they told me I couldn't wear headphones. And I was like, Oh my God, why did I accept this job? I should have said no.
I was kind of going into panic mode because I was like, this is how I make things up is listening to music and getting into my zone and doing my thing. But I did okay. So it was another tweak of the process.
Isa Rodriguez: I think we tell ourselves we can't do things and we're just making it up.
Right. We're making up that weird rule. Like, Oh, I can't do it without blah, blah, blah.
Denise Duong: Oh, I know. I felt like such a diva when I was like, "I cannot work without my headphones!"
Isa Rodriguez: But turns out you could, because you're a very resilient person.
Dylan Cale Jones: Well, and that's part of like being creative too, right? Is being able to figure out how to do things, even when unexpected things happen or things happen the way that we don't want them to. Yeah.
So Denise, if you were going to give a piece of advice to a version of yourself in the past, what advice would you give them and when would you give that advice?
Denise Duong: I guess when I was younger I would, like, really beat myself up and have doubts about my artwork and the way I was pursuing it. And I think what college did for me, was it made me look at other artists, like successful artists, and compare myself to them. And so it gave me a lot of self doubt that my artwork and my style and the way I was pursuing it was not right.
And so then I became like a phony version of myself for a little bit when I was trying my hardest to be like the masters or, you know, whoever's doing great things. But then what happened? I just turned right back around and went back to what felt comfortable with what I was doing. So if I was to tell my younger self, I'd be like, "Just study the artists, but don't compare yourself to them."
Dylan Cale Jones: Yeah. I think that is something that a lot of people who study art in college struggle with.
I find myself trying to unlearn this all the time. I don't struggle as much with comparing myself to kind of like art historical artists. It's more like artists that I see on social media and being like, oh, so-and-so is doing this. So-and-so is doing this. And you know like well, what about me? And often missing the point of like, oh like I'm doing things and I'm active and I have a practice.
I have this friend Ben. One time we were talking about this and he was like, "I want everyone to be successful."
And I was like, "Oh. Yeah. That's like a, that's like a great way to think about that."
And that's something that I have to work on all the time. I don't need to compare myself to other people. It's actually much more helpful if I feel happy for them and just continue going on with my practice and build my practice up.
Isa Rodriguez: Because there's the comparing, but there's also the competition, right? Like this internalized competition. Like, I'm in a competition with Picasso and that asshole is winning! And this is, those are the kinds of thoughts that sort of happen in my head.
But then when I actually say them out loud, I'm like, it sounds ridiculous.
Denise Duong: Instead of getting inspired, you get, you know, you get angry.
Isa Rodriguez: Uh huh. Yeah. Yeah. And it's like, that's, that's not useful.
Denise Duong: Right. Yeah. Competitive instead of inspirational. Mm hmm.
Isa Rodriguez: Yeah. But I think we're taught that.
Denise Duong: But also like, you have like those movies where you have like the, the nemesis. Without the nemesis, they're like, "I don't know how to be the superhero without my nemesis."
Dylan Cale Jones: Uh huh. Uh huh. Mm hmm.
Yeah, just trying not to turn into my own nemesis.
Isa Rodriguez: Okay, so what advice do you have for your future self?
Denise Duong: Well, I always feel like there's not enough time. And so I'm always like, "Chill out. Just chill out. Nothing's that important. Just chill out."
Dylan Cale Jones: What are the moments where you're not chilling out?
Denise Duong: It's whenever I make this list of things that aren't art related, but I have to do. Sitting in front of the computer doing things and those things like really stress me out. And I look at them and then I'm like, "Oh god, there's no time! I have to also do this!" And, you know, then I go into panic mode like "Oh, there's no time! I have to pick up the kids at 3 o'clock!"
But in reality, it's all gonna be okay. I feel like I haven't really created work in the last week because I've been trying to get everything sent out. That, you know, computer stuff. And so I realized that for my mental sanity, even if it's just a little something. Go draw or something, you know!
Isa Rodriguez: Just even in a sketchbook or doodling or whatever.
Denise Duong: You know, people take time and do yoga. You sit for an hour and draw. That's like your workout. It's your brain workout.
Dylan Cale Jones: It sounds like assuring yourself too that there is time to take for yourself outside of these obligations that maybe you don't really want to do so much.
Denise Duong: Gabe would tell me. You don't have to make like a five course meal every evening.
Dylan Cale Jones: Is that your tendency? Like, you're like, I'm going to make a big meal. Yeah.
Denise Duong: Cause like, I like cooking quite a bit.
Isa Rodriguez: I mean, cooking's super creative.
Denise Duong: Yeah. And then I'm like, well, I make this, I need this sauce and I need this pickled thing right here. And then I need a little crunch, so I'm going to do that.
You know? Yesterday I told Gabe that, I was like, I'm just going to make a really simple meal. I'm just going to make like pasta. And he's like, "Mmmhmm."
Dylan Cale Jones: Sure you are.
Denise Duong: And then I made like, instead of just some pasta with some tomato sauce, I made this whole seafood pasta. I was like, it's got salmon, shrimp, tuna, little preserved lemon.
Dylan Cale Jones: I find like with cooking. for me, I just love food so much that it's so worth it to like take that time when I do it. And that's a moment where I get totally lost and absorbed in the present.
When I'm cooking dinner or making bread or whatever, it's like, that's all there is. That's the world that I'm in.
Isa Rodriguez: I love cooking.
It's great.
Dylan Cale Jones: Cool. Well, thank you so much for joining us today, Denise. It was great talking to you.
Denise Duong: Thanks for having me.
Isa Rodriguez: Yeah, this was wonderful. Thank you.
Dylan Cale Jones: Practice Practice is created by Isa Rodriguez and Dylan Cale Jones. The music you heard in this episode is by Kate Jarboe.
Isa Rodriguez: This season of Practice Practice is funded by a Thrive Grant from the Oklahoma Visual Arts Coalition and the Andy Warhol Foundation.
Dylan Cale Jones: Thrive Grants fund community-driven, artist-led projects across the state of Oklahoma. Learn more and apply at ovac-ok.org
Denise Duong: This is Denise Duong, and you're listening to Practice, Practice.