Dylan Cale Jones: My name is Dylan Cale Jones.
Isa Rodriguez: And I'm Isa Rodriguez, and this is Practice Practice.
Dylan Cale Jones: And today we are talking to KT Duffy. KT, would you like to introduce yourself?
KT Duffy: Yes. Hello, I'm KT Duffy., I'm an artist and a professor at University of Oklahoma. I make mostly like new media, digital art. Lots of VR stuff. I have a dog named Felfel who I like a lot yeah, I think we can go with, we can rock with that for now.
Dylan Cale Jones: So KT, what was your experience of being creative as a young person, both kind of your own experience of being creative and also if there were any other people around you who were expressing themselves in creative ways?
KT Duffy: Yeah, so I could always just draw really well from a really early age. So that was like seen by the adults in my life, but I didn't really have much creative influence. My, grandfather of mine who I never met was somewhat crafty. He would do like these wood inlay things that we had in my house.
So, you know, my grandma and mom always said that I got my artistic talents from this man that I never met. But yeah, I was just always drawing, making weird shit. I was like really obsessed with making really elaborate tents in my parents house and like the backyard.
And now I'm an installation artist. So it kind of makes a lot of sense. Like why I had that compulsion as a child.
Isa Rodriguez: What kind of things were you into drawing?
KT Duffy: I really love drawing people. I found it like super challenging and I think I just really am drawn to like super technical, really detailed stuff.
Cause now I do mostly like coding and technology. So that kind of problem solving, I, I really love.
Isa Rodriguez: And layers of detail.
KT Duffy: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And I think I had a teacher in high school who told me it was the hardest thing to do. And I was like, I'm going to be the best at it. Like, I'll show you.
Dylan Cale Jones: Okay. Right on. Yeah. Yeah. So is that something that you ended up pursuing?
Figure drawing?
KT Duffy: Yeah. In high school, I mostly did like figure drawing and painting and in college I got a really weird digital art and design degree but I like mostly made paintings. And I did like like hyper realistic figurative work.
Isa Rodriguez: Seems like you're interested in bodies.
I would like to interrogate that a little bit.
KT Duffy: Well, I'm just like a meat suit. It's like animated in some way.
There's like a me in there somewhere. It's just this like flesh prison. I don't know.
Isa Rodriguez: Yeah. I mean, having a body is super strange, right? And it's also super political. Like we all have a body and all of our bodies are really politicized in ways that are often outside of our own control.
Absolutely. Yeah.
Dylan Cale Jones: Yeah. I also remember being super interested in figure painting and figure drawing when I was in high school in particular. And, I don't really know how to explain the feeling that I had because I didn't really have words for it. I just kind of felt an explosive sense of connection when I saw interesting figure paintings.
And when I went to school, that's like what I imagined myself doing too, like, I'm going to be the next best figure painter in the world which didn't happen.
Isa Rodriguez: That's a great dream though.
KT Duffy: Who holds that title?
Isa Rodriguez: Listeners, let us know your thoughts. I don't know. It seems like, it seems like none of us know, but if you have an opinion, feel free to write us.
Dylan Cale Jones: Who holds that title and who decides who decides? Yeah. Um, I. I was in a ceramics class, at the Oklahoma Contemporary and one of the students who had not gone to art school, asked what makes something art versus craft and the instructor who I was with was talking about who the wheelers and dealers in the art world were and art critics and things like that, and the way that they define those things and decide those things. Which I found really frustrating.
Isa Rodriguez: I was like an answer of like, what makes something craft is so and so said craft.
Dylan Cale Jones: And I was like, that's like, to me, that's like the most disempowering answer that I could think of.
Isa Rodriguez: Sure. Yeah.
Dylan Cale Jones: Uh, so KT, what is your practice like now?
KT Duffy: Mostly right now I'm working in Unity, making , VR experiences and I make videos out of those too. I just recently started like making my own music for those, which has been really exciting.
And I'm involved in a little collaboration called Cqde Lab. It's code with a Q cause we're gay. We, we write about like technology and coding and coding communities. And how to form better communities around those things.
And we often invite, other artists and theorists and art historians to, to write for us. So we're working on a volume of, edited essays right now.
Dylan Cale Jones: Wow. So, how do you create better communities around those things?
KT Duffy: Well, I mean, I think there's many, many tactics. One that, jumps into my head pretty quickly is refusal. Refusing to use certain tools. One of the things I do in my class I have a policy that, like, if we're using anything that you disagree with, like, you have the right of refusal. So, doesn't mean that you just don't do the project, but it means that like you can, you have the choice to refuse to participate in, you know, Meta or whatever company is making the software.
Isa Rodriguez: Oh, sure. Sure. That's awesome.
Dylan Cale Jones: Actually, when, I was in graduate school, I had quit Facebook and I had a professor who wanted us to use Facebook for the class. And there was no quote, right of refusal. Obviously, anybody has the agency to do that and deal with the consequences.
But I love that you have that set up as part of your course.
KT Duffy: I think about care a lot too, right?
You know, without human activation, the software and the technology is just, it's just that.
KT Duffy: Because , we've seen time and time again, how, homogenous communities, making shit like doesn't serve anyone, but the homogenous community. And so, I think it's really important to, to think first about like community and community connections and care before you even bring in the technology.
Dylan Cale Jones: Totally. So KT, when did you start using new media in your practice?
KT Duffy: So like I said, I was, a painter and I went to this really weird college. And there was like really no art program. It was kind of just me like in a basement making paintings and, um, This professor came, my friend Seth, and he came like kind of straight out of SFAI performance program.
And like, I kind of got labeled as a problem person, mainly because I was gay and had ADHD and like, didn't know it and the other professors told Seth about me and Seth was like, super excited to work with me.
He really introduced me to like, digital media like Final, Final Cut Pro and, Flash. And he would stay after with me and help me animate stuff, like, I would just tell him, like, oh, I want this to happen, I want this to happen, and he would do it for me, and that's how I learned.
And so I began to get really into figuring out how to make the things I was interested in painting more dynamic. And then from there, I was interested in figuring out how to make them more interactive. And so, video was my gateway drug. And then from there I am mostly self taught in coding and most of the softwares that I use today.
Isa Rodriguez: That's really cool to get that attention and care from an educator.
KT Duffy: Yeah. And he, like, introduced me to feminisms and, like, queerness even though he was an ex football player from Long Island.
So you, like, never know where you're going to get these influences from. So I'm deeply grateful to him for putting me on to a lot of this stuff that I'm interested in now.
Isa Rodriguez: Yeah, it seems like he could really see some of what you needed. You know, and offer that to you.
Dylan Cale Jones: Yeah. And it also sounds like community and practicing different forms of relationality is really important to your practice.
KT Duffy: Absolutely. I love that, studio culture that happens when you get in a studio with a bunch of different artists and you're all kind of just like stealing from each other but like in this really, really beautiful way.
And I just love to like collaborate with friends. I'm a, I'm a Virgo and I have ADHD, so I need like a job all the time. And so I'm definitely the friend that's like, let's make some stuff. You know, like, let's, let's get this together and let's, you know, figure this thing out. And so I've like several collaborations going at any given time. I also run a little design studio with my partner, Jay, called Mx. Studio, because we're a non binary design studio.
And so that's super fun to do more commercial side work with Jay. We work together really well and we've given some really unhinged interviews, which have been really fun. So, yeah.
Isa Rodriguez: So I want to hear a little bit more about the soccer game.
KT Duffy: So I guess the project was initiated because I really felt very strongly that I had to do something about living in Oklahoma, like do something about these trans bans and like all of them are equally horrifying.
But like, as a sporty kid the sports one really, really got to me. And I just felt like really compelled to do something with my body physically, because I was just, like, so enraged. And, um, the first thing I reached for was, was soccer, because that's, like, what I know.
And this idea started to formulate where it's like, oh, what if I get a bunch of like, trans, non binary, intersex, et cetera, people together and we all play each other in soccer? And what if there's drag queens as referees and we make custom gay uniforms and what if we have a video game version of it where, you know, people that aren't at the performance can, can play along?
And so I got a grant for it from OU and it turned into a little bit of a different project. Right now what it's turning into is there's a video game where you can either play as a soccer ball or you or this weird sports drink and you can make it your own little uniform and then as a soccer ball you kick a soccer ball at Maya who's a friend of mine, who's a trans intersex goalkeeper.
So the game is really about her and about her struggles through sports and organizations being trans and intersex. And then there's another component where there's a live performance where some non binary, trans, intersex people will be shooting against Maya.
So she'll actually be coming to Oklahoma and she'll be playing goalkeeper. And we'll be recording her doing her goalkeeper thing with a depth camera. And so what I'll be able to do with that is I'll take the body tracking data and I'll make, an abstracted animation of, like, Maya doing her thing that, like, is sort of removed from all the politics of the body and displays this, like, really joyful movement. And I have some young people involved too. So that's, uh, is really meaningful to me so that they get to see people like them thriving in, in situations where they're banned.
Isa Rodriguez: I can imagine a whole universe, in the same way that professional sports has this whole sort of, there's the players and the game and the video games and like all this stuff that comes with it. So I can imagine a queer version of that.
What does it look like to have all like, to have all of that exist?
KT Duffy: Yeah, the soccer thing we're going to have like, you know, number one foam fingers that say trans people belong everywhere and lots of hype for the people that attend the performance.
Isa Rodriguez: Yeah. It sounds really joyful. It sounds like really ecstatic.
KT Duffy: Thanks for saying that because most of my work is, is really abstracted and I get a lot of feedback from people I do studio visits with where it's like, oh, it's really colorful, it's really happy. Like new media doesn't normally look like that, but it's, um, It's actually not, it's actually quite political.
But for me, it feels like abstraction is the only thing that can hold those things. And so it's, interesting to step into, a little bit more of a direct action practice. But like to focus on the joy, cause you know, like the revolution has to be joyful.
Dylan Cale Jones: It sounds really joyful and it sounds really affirming too, like hearing about there being a crowd of people there, right? Like rooting these people on. Also you talking about the movement of this goalie taken out of context and just being able to appreciate the movement of this person's body. And something that I think about a lot in terms of folks being hostile towards queer people is like, for me, a big entry point into my own queerness was witnessing other queer people be joyful in their queerness.
And also joy is a foundational entry point of what it means to be human. And that even for hostile people, that potentially creates an entry point for a shift in thinking.
KT Duffy: Yeah. And it's not like we're only having a, uh, an art party, right?
All of the things that need to be happening in terms of fundamentally changing society are happening simultaneously. But making spaces for joy and making spaces for expression and creativity I think is, so fundamental to any movement. And yeah I really identify with what you're saying about, seeing other queer people in the world, like, experience their joy and, , be able to be themselves.
That's definitely the things that put me on to even words like non binary or any of the language that we use to describe who we are.
Isa Rodriguez: Well, and I think that oppressive forces are actively trying to create a world where trans kids don't get to play sports.
That's what's happening in our world. And It's a direct refusal of that to create a world in which Trans people are the stars the stars of the sports, right?
Anything they try to uncreate you can create through your artistic practice. Which is really meaningful. Especially for the participants in it.
Dylan Cale Jones: Especially for having young people be able to participate.
Isa Rodriguez: Yeah, just, just see it or know it, hear about it is like, it exists. It's right there. Right. Yeah. And putting it within reach is so important and highly political.
Dylan Cale Jones: I also love the idea of of playing the game as a, a soccer ball or as a sports drink, like how you were talking earlier about being in a meat suit and what meat suit we get to choose and how far can we expand that out and how kind of silly or strange can we get.
KT Duffy: And all the jerseys that you can choose from are based on trans and queer artists. I made patterns based on Julie Mehretu's work and there's like a Keith Haring uniform and you pick a little socks to match and, and all this stuff. So it, so it still brings in queer artists doing their thing, but bringing it into this, like, weirdo soccer context.
Isa Rodriguez: As queer people and non binary people gender expression, a lot of it is in the way we adorn our body. Yeah, so that's wonderful.
Dylan Cale Jones: So KT, is there any other aspects of your practice that you want to share with us?
KT Duffy: I'm really interested in the space between like a collapse and a rebirth. Like, when power flips, and when those who have held power no longer hold the power anymore, what happens, you know? And there's, there's gonna be a fallout, right?
I did this one installation at Galleri Urbane in Dallas called "I Wanna Watch You Watch It Burn." It's from a St. Vincent song. And I really love that because, all of my loved ones that literally have skin in the game in terms of working towards this new future, what it would feel like to like watch them watch it all burn down, you know?
And then on the other side of that to watch all the power- hoarders and money- hoarders, like, to watch them watch it all burn down. And so I make abstracted visuals that kind of sit in this place where something's dying, something's new coming, and you're sort of like trapped in this moment.
I like to make stuff that looks like you're stuck in an in between space.
Dylan Cale Jones: KT, do you consider or how do you consider teaching part of your practice?
KT Duffy: I feel like it's so conjoined into one thing at this point.
That whenever I'm talking about my visual work, I'm actually talking about education.. Like, my studio practice is essential to my teaching practice and vice versa.
And I think. I've always sort of, like, lied my way into my jobs, right? I'm absolutely, like, a duct tape programmer. I don't really know what I'm doing. I, I taught myself how to do all this shit and I'm just figuring it out. And that's what I bring to the classroom is this mentality of we can just figure this all out together, you know?
We're gonna learn this software, we're gonna learn this coding language. And everyone in the space has, has knowledge to share that's gonna help us get to the end goal. And that's the way I teach and that's the way I make stuff, too.
I'm just really responding to, like, what the students need. Where they want to, like, take their projects. And you know, just giving them tools along the way that, like, I'm actually in the process of learning.
Isa Rodriguez: That sounds really emergent. A solution emerges as a need happens, and that that's how you guide your role in that space in the classroom.
KT Duffy: I studied social work too in undergrad. I have a, uh, ESW.
There's a thing that you say in social work school that's like just meet everybody where they're at. Uh huh. Yeah. And that's something I just always, carry around with me when I'm like dealing with people, everyday situations, and especially when I'm dealing with my students. Everybody has something to offer but they might just not know like how to, how to get it out, you know?
And, uh, it's a really fascinating project to help someone articulate this thing that's really meaningful to them, but they can't quite like put their, finger on it. And I feel like I'm always chasing that as an artist, like, I'm never quite able to put my finger on exactly what it is I'm chasing.
I have all these artists statements and I have these elevator pitches and ways of talking about my work, but I'm talking about like oblivion and nothingness and the great expanse, the, the void, the veil. And I'm, I'm not ever quite sure why I'm making something or what is driving me to do it.
It just feels like I, I have to do it.
Isa Rodriguez: Yeah. Just like following that intuition. Yeah, which can lead us in all kinds of strange directions.
KT Duffy: Yeah, I love a side quest. Like, you know, in the classroom, we love a side quest. If we're learning something and students like, Oh, did you see this?
I'm like, oh, no, I didn't see that. Let's mess around with that. You know, um, I'm always doing that in the studio too. Every project I do, I'm trying some kind of new something out. I think that's like really all being a new media artist is, is you're just like constantly learning new shit.
Isa Rodriguez: Yeah, it sounds like you love learning.
KT Duffy: Yeah, I do. I, I do. Maybe. I don't know. I really hated school, but I have my own ways of teaching myself things because the normative ways didn't really work for me. And that just requires a lot of fucking around with stuff and changing values and seeing what happens and taking something and like opening it in a program it's not supposed to be opened in and then printing that out and scanning it and hooking it back into some kind of software I've never used before. And I just love that process of taking this thing you're working on and synthesizing it through all these tools and using all of them like very wrong. And that's something I'm also really interested in is wrong usage of a tool. You know, a lot of the tools that we have in, in new media, you know, they're all tied to the military.
They're all tied to defense fundIng. And I just love the fuck you of like, I'm just going to use this completely wrong. I'm not going to use the software for what it's intended to do. I'm going to just set out to break this thing.
And that feels like a really powerful space for me. And I like to empower students to get there too. Like, I think failure, like really big failures is the best way of creating work and, and of being in communities . And, uh, you learn so much from that, those experiences, like way more than kind of presenting something that's like super tidy and finished.
Isa Rodriguez: Yeah, absolutely. I agree. And it sounds super queer, like politically queer to be using things in the way that they're not supposed to be used and to question what the parameters of like use are and push on that until you push it to the edge and it breaks.
KT Duffy: Yeah. Yeah. And that's when I get excited.
Isa Rodriguez: Yeah. Love that.
Dylan Cale Jones: And to be giving students, agency in the classroom.
Isa Rodriguez: To allow the class to go where the students need it to go rather than sticking to this list. Yeah.
KT Duffy: And like that linear shit just doesn't work for me.
Like I don't understand and it's really hard for me to sit down and make a syllabus cause that's not the way my brain is working.
Isa Rodriguez: And if it doesn't work for you, I'm sure it doesn't work for a bunch of students, right?
KT Duffy: And I feel like when you have this sort of community and environment where everybody's activated to share and to hold space and hold knowledge, then some really interesting things happen.
And I love when I get a lot of people who are like, "Oh, I'm terrible at coding" or "I've never coded before."
And I'm always like, you're gonna make the best shit because you don't know what the standards are. And your code it's probably not going to validate perfectly.
And, it's probably gonna produce some like really beautiful results.
Isa Rodriguez: Like there's so much potential in, in the problem or in the error. Yeah.
KT Duffy: Yeah, just the potentiality of the error and where that can take you and, you know, where a perceived like deficit of a skill, you can actually use it as like this positive paradigm for making.
Isa Rodriguez: That was really great. That was really well said. Yeah.
Dylan Cale Jones: So KT. What else do you have going on in your life outside of your art practice?
KT Duffy: Woof.
I just started tattooing. I'm actually teaching a tattooing class. At OU right now, it's half JavaScript, half tattooing. So that's how I'm getting away with teaching it in art technology.
Isa Rodriguez: That's an amazing combo.
KT Duffy: Yeah. And like my argument was that like, oh, these are job skills.
Like who would have thought job skills in an art department? We're having a blasty blast and you know, we're just using fruits and fake skin. And I'm very much still learning how to tattoo. And it's just been really, really wonderful to share that experience with the students and to see what they come up with.
And it just feels like it's something that shouldn't be happening. And I like to be in those spaces where, um, yeah, just something really unexpected can happen.
Isa Rodriguez: Yeah, it sounds like it's bringing, bringing back in your love of drawing too.
KT Duffy: Yeah, absolutely.
But it's going really well. And, there's a lot of students that are interested in pursuing tattooing, but maybe the family or some of their teachers don't really see it as a meaningful art career when it like absolutely is, you know, it's a, it's a trade and you can make pretty good money.
And then even just a little bit of introduction to coding and code theory can get you really far. So it's my hope that a class like this can give students just like a little more spice on their skill set. To help them land that job or figure out what it is they want to do.
Dylan Cale Jones: So you also go back and forth between Oklahoma city and Chicago. What's that like?
KT Duffy: I don't know. It's become pretty normal to me. I really love that drive now. I used to not be able to even drive like four hours consecutively in a car. I just like fall asleep.
Um, but. Yeah, I can drive that 12 hours like in one day. No problem. And, um, I don't know, there's something that works for me about having the space where I work and that's what I'm doing when I'm here. And then when I'm in Chicago, uh, I mean, I'm always working. I'm never not working. But it feels like I kind of have the separation of like, that's where my people are.
And then this is where I work. That's like sort of changing a little bit because I've recently met some really rad people in Norman that I'm like really enjoying spending time with.
Dylan Cale Jones: And how often are you going to Chicago?
KT Duffy: Mostly like every break I get. So I spend the whole summer there, all my winter break there, um, any big holidays.
Isa Rodriguez: Are you going for spring break?
KT Duffy: I'm not going to go because my friend is doing a really big installation at OU. So we're going to be putting that up.
It says, "Welcome to the Death of White Manhood Project," which I'm super excited about.
Isa Rodriguez: That sounds awesome.
KT Duffy: Yeah. Charles Ryan Long is super rad. And we've been working on this project for about a year and a half. So super excited to bring it to the Oklahoma community. And then after that, I'll have my, um, weirdo soccer show.
Uh, so I kind of need to stay in and hammer some things down. But I don't know, life just took me here for certain reasons. And I'm here for the time being and just making the best of it, you know?
Isa Rodriguez: Yeah. And it seems like it's important for you to be in Oklahoma right now. Right? Like, and you've got good work that you're doing here.
KT Duffy: Yeah. Yeah. I feel like like I have good support here and there's funding for making work, so that's, that's been a really like kind of game changer for me.
Isa Rodriguez: Yeah, you know, I've been really surprised at how many artists are in Oklahoma right like before we moved here I really I didn't know what to expect, but I, I didn't have super, high expectations.
And then arriving here and getting into community here. It's like, wow, everyone is a weirdo and everyone is an artist. Like so many people I meet are really doing things here.
KT Duffy: Yeah. And it seems like we're all kind of dispersed, right?
Like there's no real way for us to like centrally connect. I would love to do something about that, but I'm trying to not be so impulsive about my projects and, uh, I tend to be like, I have this idea and like jump into something. But I think it'd be really rad if we all started writing about each other's shows and you know, kind of creating some connections.
Isa Rodriguez: Yeah, I agree.
Well, uh, so is there anything changing in your practice right now that you'd like to talk about or any kind of questions on the horizon that you're thinking of?
KT Duffy: Yeah, I used to do these really large format installations that I absolutely love doing.
But the, the last one I did, like, just, I don't know, it almost killed me. And this is a very funny anecdote. It was in Chicago and I have clothes in Chicago and I needed a pair of jeans to go install in and I wore my partner's pants and, uh, they were too small on me.
And so it was just like this like miserable and I got like sick and I was wearing these pants that didn't fit me and trying to install the show and everything that could go wrong went wrong and after that, I was just like I'm not doing these installations anymore.
That's not true. I hope to get back to those but I'm trying to move slower, trying to make more intentional work, trying to make more work that is a little more directly responsive to what's going on around me.
And it feels like a really good place. I don't know what that looks like visually yet for me. But you know, I think the thing that is, is changing for me is that I'm shifting more to a community practice where, you know, I've, I've had that before, but I think it's what makes the most sense for me right now.
And, you know, I'll make my own individual, like little lumpy things here and there. But I kind of have like my heart set on a bigger picture a little bit.
Dylan Cale Jones: Well, like we've talked about it, it is really important in Oklahoma right now to have a sense of community and feel grounded in that.
Isa Rodriguez: Yeah. And I feel a big responsibility as like elder queer people to show up and be visible and be in spaces where younger queer people can like see me and meet me. And even if, you know, however that goes, right? Just to be like, I'm here and, and I am visible.
KT Duffy: Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah, I have a lot of students who come up to me and they're like, Oh, you're my first like queer professor or you're like the first non binary person I've ever met or, you know, things like that. And uh, hope I'm doing a good job representing all y'all out there.
Isa Rodriguez: Yeah. All, all of us with all our mess and confusion and different kinds of brains and different kinds of bodies. Yeah. Yeah. You're doing great.
Yeah. Go ahead. Dylan.
Dylan Cale Jones: So KT, if you were going to give any advice for yourself in the past, something that you needed to hear, what would you tell yourself?
KT Duffy: Oh Lord, um,
Dylan Cale Jones: Would it start with that?
KT Duffy: Relax. Yeah. That's what I would tell myself.
Dylan Cale Jones: Okay. Okay. And what about your future self?
KT Duffy: Probably relax, chill out, chill the fuck
out.
Dylan Cale Jones: Do you have like, do you have strategies or routines or rituals for chilling out right now, if you feel like you're getting towards the edge of being over, not chilled out,
KT Duffy: uh, sleeping.
Yeah. Yeah. Love a good, good long nap. Yeah. Sometimes I get it in like a ADHD zone where it's just like all swirling and I just can't really piece any of it out and it just gets really exhausting and that's when I know it's time to just go to sleep for an hour and wake up and retry the day.
Isa Rodriguez: Yeah. That's great advice.
Dylan Cale Jones: Well, that was a great conversation. KT, thank you so much for joining us today.
KT Duffy: Yeah. Thanks for having me.
Dylan Cale Jones: Practice Practice is created by Isa Rodriguez and Dylan Cale Jones. The music you heard in this episode is by Kate Jarboe.
Isa Rodriguez: This season of Practice Practice is funded by a Thrive Grant from the Oklahoma Visual Arts Coalition and the Andy Warhol Foundation.
Dylan Cale Jones: Thrive Grants fund community-driven, artist-led projects across the state of Oklahoma. Learn more and apply at ovac-ok.org
KT Duffy: I'm KT and you're listening to Practice Practice.